I like a challenge, too, and definitely see your point.  I have been there, and to an extent, I am still there. 

However, I have since begun to realize that there are some games you can set your own challenge level by the content you choose, and the people/person you hang out with. 

I find irony in the fact that you stayed away from Vanguard because of what other people were saying.  That game CAN be easy, but is fairly hardcore if you want a challenge. 

Case in point: My brother and I, at lv 30, were duoing "red" quests, where the mobs were lv 33-35.  We came to the snake pit area, and wondered where they all were.  Well, there was a full group of 6 lv 32-36 played doing the snake quest.  They literally stood in the middle and just killed everything as it spawned.

(cont from above)

If you were to ask each person about their experience of Vanguard, my brother and I would say that it is full of challenge, and we had tyo work hard to get what we want to get accomplished..accomplished.   We would have to learn our classes and use a ton of the depth of each of our classes to get it done.  We'd have to be GOOD. 

Those other 6 would say it is a lame, easy-mode grind fest of quests like any other, and that the classes are shallow and you do the same thing over and over. 

They chose their way, we chose ours.  To us, there is no peer to Vanguard when you want challenge, depth and that feeling of being a huge world and you can roam freely in search of your own experience.  But it can also be another WoW, if you want it to be.

Hey Mhantra. Thanks for the comment. :)

You're right about choosing your own level of challenge but only to a certain point. You could apply your theory to any game.. Even WoW. Ofc. the game would be challenging if level 10 players were hunting level 20 monsters but in most games it's simply not possible.. Or at least it's not worth the time. Your idea is great as long as it's possible to do that and still stay competitive.
If it takes a level 10 player 20 seconds to kill a level 10 monster and 1 minute to kill a level 20 monster, then the level 20 monster has to give him 3 times the XP as well. Otherwise he ends up hurting himself just by wanting a bit of a challenge. 

Just wanted to say, i hear you brother. I left my share of games, due to lack of challange. I mean, there is just something wrong about having to seek out mobs that are "red" to feel excited. I personally feel, that mobs at your own lvl, should be hard, so that you have to think about your method of approuch. And should it be to much of a challange, then there is strategy in having planed your escape. There is a point in why mobs that where tagged "green" in WoW, still gave you exp.

I quit the game, when Wotlk, where released. It just feelt pointless that if you where a tank, you could take up red 5man quests, and solo them:\ I hope Alganon has more to offer.

Happy Hunting brother

I definitely see your point, Moom.  However, isn't the actual level of a mob or group of mobs (that you are hunting) simply an arbitrary label?  I mean, once you get used to red mobs being "equal level" (just reassigning the labels), then it really is the same thing as if those same exact mobs had a "white" label.

.  Perhaps it would help to make all reds as white, and all whites as greens or light blues.  Ultimately, though, it is the same thing.

However, I fully agree with more challenge.  WoW and AC absolutely don't have it, Vanguard has the potential to have it.  But in VG it lies within the very deep classes that allow tactical decisions to be made.  Unfortunately, few people seem to explore that or even value it.  Heck, I can go so far as to say some people don't even know it exists.  Because it seems to only exist in its entire depth in smaller, intimate groups.  AC is completely lacking this class depth, in this regard.

What I want is tactical and strategical depth.  However, the larger the group, the more impossible it is for that group of humans to actually engage in it in any decent strategic depth at all.  They seem to reduce it to a bunch of rote and mechanical and simplistic moves, and then call that the "right" way, the "only" way, eschewing all others.

Devs could make this game, but very few would play it. 

Good topic. Well debated on all sides...My two pennies (English) I feel there is certainly a large amount of blame to be laid at the feet of the players with regards to why games seem to be dumbing down, the want of instant reward is beyond belief and I will be the first to admit I have also been guilty of it at times, we get caught up in the chase of pretty new things and forget to enjoy the journey of getting there.

How many times have I been refused joining in a raid because I was not the absolute perfect match to make it as easy as is possible....If people actually avoided the perfect group and mixed things up again the challange and the feeling of achievment return...

Now if I can just remember to do this once I get on Alganon I'll be fine....pft some chance once I see pretty shiney new weapons :)

I have been playing Everquest since 2002, and still continue to do so, and this is largely the reason (though EQ also has a lot less challenge now than it used too, and for certain suffers from the need-max-level-to-start syndrome).  The reason for this is just market forces - a game like WoW has a huge target market.  A more in-depth, challenging game has a much smaller target market, and is thus less attractive for investors (that's not to say that dominating a smaller niche cannot be profitable - just that the potential upside is less).  Eventually something will come along that will aim squarely at (and dominate) the niche you and I want to be a part of, but it might take a while...

Koshling, I agree 100%
Some day there probably will be a game that suits players like us but I don't want to wait any longer. Haha
There's no doubt that niche games can be successful.. Just look at EVE Online for example. It's like no other game on the market and they seem to be doing very well. :)

I don't understand why so many of the new games aim to be the WoW-beater. Blizzard is a big company with a lot of money and even more fanbois.. When you try to make a 'better WoW' you either succeed or fail bigtime. Chances are that most of the companies out there will fail.
What we need is a lot of the game developers to grow some balls and use their imagination. I'm sure a lot of them have great ideas and are very talented but we don't really see evidence of those things very often anymore. 

Oh well, let's hope that Alganon will change all that. They don't have to reinvent the wheel for me to be happy but I'm getting fed up with the feeling of 'Hey, didn't I play this before?' in new games today. ;)

Gnawer, You also seem to have forgotten one big area, I need my games to be simple as I'm usually so drunk that I would never find my way back to the quest giver if he did not have a big yellow exclaimation mark above his head ;)

Haha Argento. Are you sure you're not getting drunk because you've realized that alcohol is the only way to make most newer games challenging? ;)

hehe you may have a point there, I spend my mmo time focused on pvp these days due to time constraints, I do love pve but don't feel i can be reliable enough to raid, but in pvp I find that drink seems to enhance my skills through the first few pints then slowly goes down hill after that. Also beer has caused me to make some terrible decisions like when I sold all of my warriors tanking gear as a way of forcing me to no longer be a tank...took me months to replace it all and went down like a lead balloon with my guild mates :) ah well ya live and learn

oh and just to add to that last little lesson in MMO life if you do sell your tanking gear its also very wise to actually own some dps gear or at least have enough money to buy some :)

I would say the challenge went tucktail and out the backdoor with the onset of the World of Warcraft generation of MMO's.

People take for granted simple features that they "expect" new MMO's to incorporate into their game. While the target market for the MMO industry expands, the difficulty of the games will continue to be degraded into almost nothing. I'm just waiting and hoping there will be a game to raise the bar back to where it used to be.

I to have trying to find a new home for my mmo addiction. So I started my Everquest account back up again and found that the has been dulled down to fast xp, easy travel, easy plat, empty zones. If they ever come up with a classic server (orginal and kunark) I would definately stay there until Alganon beta or release.

I do beleive that one of the reasons people like "easy" mmos are RL time constraints. The average age player of mmos is 30, so most people have a family and work to deal with. So spending an hour or two in an mmo is all they have.

I use to play muds and early mmos for 4-5 hrs every week day and up to 12 hrs on a weekend day playing. Now I barely have time for a third of that.

I don't mind stuff like the UI being less challenging (read: frustrating), in fact, I really appreciate it. But I do dislike the content being dumbed down.

I think part of the problem is aiming at the "little kid" audience. You can see this with the cutesy mushroom mobs and so forth.

I remember when I first started playing eq2, there was a zone called The Ruins and it was hard. Being a newb, I wasn't so good at first, and had to go home couple times a night to repair my armor. And this was with a full group.

At the time I quit the game, the zone had been so dumbed down that I could solo it when the mobs were red. Granted experience and being geared up would have an effect on that, but not That much of an effect.

Yeah I have to admit I am between the two on this one, I do like a challange but I'm also at the age that I can not offer as much time as I once could, For this reason I try to limit myself to one particular area of an mmo, these days it is pvp something that I once would not have gone near but found it was the last place that I could play at the higher end of the game, without taking up too much of my time. My only hope would be that I could be able to level my Character through pvp, I used to love pve and raiding, it's still where i think the true enjoyment can be found due to the friendships built in the team challange ooooh happy days :)

The main thing I see in MMOs is confusing challenging with tedious. I've been playing Runes of Magic lately. But they continuously confuse the two. Instances have hundreds of trash mobs that provide very little challenge but take an hour+ to clear (unless you are really over powered). The crafting is not worth doing, it is a sea of tedium. To make any usable item involves farming literally hundreds of materials to craft. Plus they all require farming an entire instance over and over for a very small chance at the needed drop.

Other games fail the same way by making gaining rep for a faction a matter of grinding for days or weeks.

I would love to find a game that is challenging without being a grindfest, but I don't have high hopes because it is so much easier for an mmo maker to just put in the grinding, and people will still play.

Hmm. Dhrami, I think that strikes a chord with me. By creating an hour of trash mobs to get to the challenging content, it creates a mundane experience, except for the tiny part at the end, where it gets exciting.

The game I am playing now, Vanguard, is still one of the most successful in creating old school challenge, but there's a catch. Not all of the game is as such. Certain dungeons are so well built, that at the correct level, a trio could do it (say, a trio at even level), but at the same time, if a full group goes in 2-3 levels earlier, they still have a challenge on their hands.

Yet, other dungeons are filled with a bunch of 3 dots (for an hour), only to all of a sudden drop into a bunch of 4-5 dot mobs. Where's the sense in that?!? You see, if a full group goes into the dungeon to get to the 4/5-dot mobs, they have to clear garbage to get there? Yes, if the dungeon draws a duo into it, drawn in by the challenge (say, even-level 3-dots in groups, with adds via wanderers etc), they get an hour in, and all of a sudden it is literally impossible to continue on. Quite demoralizing.

I dont think game designers are the only problem. A MMORG costs a lot of money to create.  Risking millions of dollars creating a radical new game that would not interest the players of WoW is a big challenge.

My biggest demand of a game is to be entertained. WoW bored me, Vanguard frustrated me, LOTRO has entertained me for several years just need a bit of a change. Last night on a solo quest I was defeated 3 times. each time I got a bit further it may take me 5 goes to complete. This is challenging if I fail 6 time frustration will set in. One quest need 12 attempts to complete and I nearly quit over it.

I would have to say basically right on! Thats pretty much how I feel. To give an example of a real potential challenge - early EQ you lost xps when you died and if you died enough you lost levels. You could litterally go from max level back to lvl 1 if you tried hard enough. There was a time when i was playing an enchanter and I totally sucked at it. I stayed between level 16 and lvl 18 for about a month before I really got the hang of the class. I then was able to really push forward but the fact that I did not automatically gain a level because I logged in today is what makes a real challenge. Reaching level cap and that sort of thing should be something earned because you are good enough not because you played 100 or 200 hours and therefore deserve it.

I know its not a popular view point but its on my personal list of what would make my dream MMO. Hmm sounds like a blog I might have to right up :)

I was in EQ 1 when it started and I loved the mind set they had,.If it was to hard for you, move on. I loved the exploration of unknow areas, the hell levels and if you died you lost something. You could died anywhere at any time, save the city. I remember the only way to a new land was the boat.(before there where any Druids the could group port) It was a hard game and I loved it for that, it ment something when you got a piece of rare armor. (not like now in many games) What was the best part of that game was, they did not give any information it was player driven. (If no one had found it and reported it, It was not on the websites) I would love another game that made things Important, each level and death. I hope that that kind of MMo will come back.

Caun, I was also there for EQ's general release.  I couldn't agree with you more about everything that there was to love about EQ.   Great rewards came with great risks.  Going too deep within a dungeon that was beyond your skill could result in hours-long naked corpse runs. :-)  If you got a lucky piece of loot from a mob, you had to advertise to get rid of it.  The community was driven by the players back in those days.  Remember GFay-mart... or the East Commonlands Tunnel?  Having all the great automation like Auction Houses actually robs MMOs of something really great.  EVE Online has proven that the player-driven "sand box" model produces the most loyal long-term players.  I just wish someone would develop that environment for the fantasy genre.  Sci-Fi is not a genre a particularly enjoy.  Maybe Alganon will develop into the fantasy version of  EVE.

God, if Alganon can tap into 50% of what made EQ great then it's on to a winner imo.

Nice blog post.

I 100% agree with you about challange... I am sick to death of virtual knitting simulators being passed off as MMORPGs... It just smacks of gameplay descisions being based on profit (the need to appeal to everyone from 8-80) over, well, gameplay.

Noone begrudges a profit, thats fine and fair, but when games are designed by committee for that and only that we have an issue.

Pay to Achieve (so called 'free to play') games are even worse imo. Seeing the genre I love turned in just virtual market spaces for the lazy and gulliable to buy shinies for their pretend paper dolls with RL money makes me sad.

So, yes, challenge. Definitely. Please show me a Dev that isnt afraid of it and realises it's better to have 200,000 players for 10 years then 500,000 for 2 months and I will show them a new fanboi- me.

Throw in co-op social group play on top of that and you have me for years.

Well, I play mmos to have fun. Death penalty in Shadowbane was not fun to me. Constant ganking is not fun.  Frustration is not fun to me.  I do enjoy exploring and questing and getting new stuff in the game--so I guess I'm one of those players who appreciate the trend in mmos,  and the entertainment I get from them. There's plenty of RL challenges to make life interesting, don't really need that in my entertainment though, lol.

There are a few "easier" things that I appreciate, like a very nice map feature, but on the whole, there isn't a whole lot of challenge left.  Group play is downplayed, anything below level cap is unimportant, level caps are easier and easier to reach...  A slower, fuller experience would be much more rewarding.

As to death penalties... there are two sides of the coin.  On one hand, it ramps up the difficulty, which is good, but on the other hand, it makes a player less willing to take risks.  High risk / high reward scenarios become that much more chancy, and thus less likely to be undertaken.  All sorts of do or die content would become less used, from difficult raid encounters that require lots of attempts, to more dangerous pvp scenarios.

Also, back to maps for a second.  You should only be able to see places you've been.  Knowing the shape, dimensions, and locations of zones you've never seen takes a lot of fun out of exploration.  On the flip side, being able to transfer map information between characters might be a nice balance.

imo, death penalties don't make the game harder. They just make dying really suck. Think about it - if a monster hits for over 9000 damage a swing every half second, what part of death penalties makes that any more difficult? It makes recovering from mistakes exceptionally punitive and that's not a good way to encourage people to play.

One mistake I've seen a lot of MMO dev companies make is they make their high end content so unaccessible that the vast majority of their customers are unable to play it. Why waste months developing a set of raid dungeons that only 2% of your customer base ever gets to play? If Alganon does the same thing and say has 200,000 subscribers that means 4000 players are going to see that raid dungeon. It's just a waste of time and money in the big picture. It's nothing on the scale of the 200,000/500,000 Vesavius suggested.

Alganon has a lot to offer with the study system I think. It looks really good on paper for all players.

Hi,  I hear what you're saying about the challenge, but for myself, I play for entertainment. Life has plenty of challenges in it already and not very exciting rewards most of the time, lol. But I really enjoy being able to entertain myself for a few hours, without a lot of frustration or commitment or expense. I have simple requirements in a game and the most important one to me is fun.  I found out in Shadowbane--death penalty does not make the game fun, lol. In Wow, there's many instances I'll never see because it requires grouping--I prefer to solo so I can take my own time doing things. But I enjoy grouping for awhile to get this or that done--but no "raid schedules".  Anyway, I hope both styles will find the game to be a good one for them and look forward to it's continuing development--very disappointed about the Ranger changes though....

I agree, Gnawer.

I played MUDs before there were MMORPGs, my first graphical was Ultima Online, but my first REAL mmo that sucked me into the gameworld was Everquest.

I remember the celebrity of having a GM appear in Unrest to grant me my Lastname when I hit 20th!

I remember having my corpse left on the Plane of Hate for nearly a week because the pickup raid wiped and everyone bailed.

I remember the first time I killed a guard from another city.

I remember exploring Befallen, and Blackburrow, and Split Paw.

I remember the first time I made the LOONG run across the ice fields of northern Everfrost to see a dragon, Vox,  for the first time.  Then later in my career daring the volcanic home of a fire dragon, Nagafen.

Every single thing I ever did in EQ was amazing back then, and I enjoyed every single XP I gained during the slow, arduous climb.  Back then, it wasn't about getting to max level as soon as possible, it was about mastering the level-appropriate dungeon, and then moving on to the next zone, each as challenging as the last.  Dungeons had traps that dropped you to your likely doom.

EQ was full of good memories for me, BECAUSE the game was a great challenge for many years.  I stopped playing sometime  after the Giants, Dwarves, Dragons patch came out.  Can't remember it now, oh yeah, Velious.  Game seemd to lose most of its luster for me after that.

I've played just about every MMO since then, but nothing seems to have that fire for me.  I like the concept of DAoC, and I played it for a while, but aside from that, nothing much has come even close.

Have you played Atlantica Online?  I think you would enjoy it.

The quests in that game really just teach you about the world around you, rather than giving you large rewards.  The challenge really comes in your tactical setup of your 8 mercenaries and yourself (your hero).  You can be the best hero in the game, but if you dont have the right mercenaries that work together with each other, you will fail.  And all the best items, armor, weapons, etc.  come from players crafting them.  However, to create the best crafts, an entire clan has to work together.

It also has a managerial side of the game as well.  Clans can gain control over a city, and once they do that, they have to setup a government of that city, defend the city, and build the city.  It takes a dedicated, knowledgeable clan to keep a city running well.

That was one of the most challenging MMORPGs I have played, and it still serves a special place in my heart.

All I have to say is that there is a difference between challenge and wasted time.  I don't mind a good challenge at all but I also don't want to have to play a game 40+ hours a week for two years just to experience the major encounters/dungeons in the game.  Also you have to account for your core players. The person who started this thread isn't your typical player. Your typical player wants to be able to play 2-4 hours at a time and feel they accomplish things from week to week. I remember sitting in EQ waiting hours and hours for a world boss to spawn and not getting shit when it was all said and done. You really had to work your ass off for gear in EQ and I hated every minute of it.

I'm sure there is enough room in the MMO marketplace for games that appeal to every taste. That said, I'm not looking for a "challenge" per se when it comes to my subscription fee vote.  What I'm looking for is long-term avatar development over time, and an interesting, amusing, entertaining game experience.

For example, I have zero interest in wandering around trying to find some location, getting there, then dying multiple times before I log search the internet (or the library or blogs) to find out how to beat some creature, then dying again, suffering a penalty, and doing another corpse run. What I do have an interest in is spending 20-30 hrs of offline study to become a master bug-killer and then watching my online avatar execute a magical stomp move that does 2x crit damage on any bug creature.  Or, spending 50 hrs offline time training in new combat moves that my avatar then executes.

That kind of stuff interests me. I don't play for the challenge (although I support your enjoyment of challenge), I play to see and experience interesting stuff in the game as a character development hobby kind of thing.  If there is a considerable challenge (raiding, massive online time, etc.) between me and some character development, then I'll likely just start playing non-MMO games like Oblivion again.

Interesting read!

There is not and will never be a catch all game.  Everytime a new game comes out it generally brings a few new things to the table, which within months if they are worth their salt, are copied by every other game out there.  Your wanting a game to breath depth and complexity into a world that is generated by someone else.  You want a path to endless adventure that is not dulled by repeatitive time sinks, railroaded encounters or the same old grind to max level.  But in the end, all games will have some repeat of the tried and true formula.  My only suggestion to you is the one ive done myself, do some pen and paper roleplaying, the format that spawned this genre, try other styles of games and alternate between them not committing an over abundance of time to any one style.  If you find that time away from the game makes you fret over what your not accomplishing in the said mmo of your choice, then ramp up your mmo time a little until burnout sets in then trend it back.  I suffer from the same thing as you do, BUT I have had to teach myself to be realistic in my expectations as with any good entertainment it is always hampered by the technology and innovation of the current era (In other words mmo's/FPS etc, will probably be all the more amazing when we can experience them with virtual reality, or whatever the next technology bending trend ends up being)  Sadly and through no fault of your own, you have become the bored roman citizen sitting on the colliseum steps going "Man gladiators again, BLEGH".  Its not your fault in the slightest just the nature of the human beast.

WEll I still think Everquest 1 is the best game for a challenge!!  Wow is your basic rpg for dummies, but what do you expect for a game that you can solo to max level!

I am absolutely astonished that there are people that agree with the 'fact' that MMOs difficulty have degraded because of the ruling RPG of choice nowadays WoW. I like all MMOs until they start giving away alot of stuff that took months of thinking. strategizing, theorizing, headaches, hours of grinding to get. Since they got money hungry they just gave away that one thing that made the 'real' players feel accomplished. Honestly I stop playing a game once they get into too many expansions for the simple fact that all the original parts of the game become completely invisible. It is obvious games need to prgress but definitely not at the expense of making older content feel like you worked for nothing. I like the idea that Alganon is using a 'player evolving' experience to where we shape the world around us. Even if the older content does become obsolete at least you know 'you' made it that way and there will be some marker in the world to let you know that. It makes you want to play more. I am only one trial but I do appreciate the vision this game had put in my mind. I have been playing MMOs for over 2 decades and I plan on becoming a Game Developer myself. If no one brings back the 'challenge' we are all looking for...then I will be attempting to bring sexy back to the MMOs.

Hmm, It's funny to read this thread and see how things are defined as easy or frustrating. WoW is to easy because you get too much too fast and Vanguard is frustrating because it's too hard at times. I play both of these and enjoy them. Why? Because I role play. Not hard core but in my mind. I have one character and play it as if it's alive. I may log into WoW for an hour and do nothing but hang out in Stormwind and interact with other players. If my toon in Vanguard wanders into a dungeon and find himself face to face with a 3 dot I either high tail it or see if anyone else could save my butt. Ask 20 gamers what the perfect MMO is and get 20 answers. For me, it's feeling like I am in another world and can interact with others, both WoW and VG give me this.  I don't want a game to imitate all of lifes problems, I got that already. I want a fantasy world where I can overcome problems with enough difficulty to feel like I accomplished something.

The biggest problem I have is time.  I have found that the "elitist" players in a game are the ones who don't seem to have any life.  Any time during the day or night you log on you will find the same toons there.  I get frustrated when I meet some nice folks at the same level and start running with them only to be swiftly outpaced because they have more time to play.  I have been left behind by more good people in all the games I've played that I am reluctant anymore to try to find friendship and just plod along all by myself.  It's almost better to play non online games instead, for me.

Hey! I don't have a life and I'm not elitist!

I agree mostly with the blog.  EQ1 had a lot of interesting charm... the new model of ogres made my graphics card at the time grind to a screeching halt because they had so many more polys.

I like challenge, but in these mostly mainstream games you lack the main thing that these games are about, and keep good players there -- Community.  When creating a new character on WoW I have to leave nearly every public channel due to my servers love for drama and wanna-be trolling.

I'm not even overly concerned about challenge anymore, just so long as the game isn't a breeze through what is hyped as 'tough' content.  If it is rewarding, enjoyable, and doesn't hold my hand the entire way, then it's not overly bad I guess.

Sidenode: Adrios just came back up! <3

Dragonchoir, just because people may not have a "life" as you call it, doesn't make them elitist. I have no kids, no dog to walk etc. so obviously I can play more than your average family dad, but that doesn't make me elitist in any way.
I'm sure there are elitist players out there but that's not really what the blog was about.

But if you want to talk about people who annoy us, I can mention the casual players who play 2 hours every other night and complain about not having the same items, same skill, same wealth etc. as people who play 10+ hours per day. Now there's something ridiculous to talk about. Just paying the same monthly fee does not mean everyone should get the same whether they actually play the game or not.

But yeah.. The blog was about the lack of challenge. MMOs take up a lot of time and if time is a problem, then maybe you're right.. Single player games might be a better option for you. The story, lore, quest, immersion etc. is usually way better in single player games as well.
No matter how much it may annoy you not having enough time to play, you can't really blame other gamers for it. ;) 

dddd

sry about that was just trying out this blog thing

but i do agree with what gnawer is getting at

the challenge he's asking for is not related to mob fighting but that the game is starting to lack the feel for an adventure by focusing on just getting higher leveled and ending it as quickly as possible so u can walk around showing off to the lowbies by running them through instances and so forth

after the minimap and the radar that shows everywhere you have to go my ability to recognize, memorize locations and places seem to deterioate, it rly dumbs u down and it doesnt feel like im wandering the land, i dont even have to read the quests anymore...

i do wish they would remove the minimap and the radar and no xp bar too to show how long it takes to get to next level u wont be burdened by it at all i could sit around level 20 and while just playing for fun i go up a level but its not life or death to me, it's just oh i leveled cool

i remember those old games where you dont know how much hp the enemy has left and they only give hints of how theyre feeling that should be brought as wellhow u cant tell how much hp the enemy has and u will just have to will urself to win or know when u have to flee by gut feeling

Just read the original post and skimmed over the responses.  I've got an angle you may not have thought of.  Could it be a matter of the MMOs out there seem "simpler" to you due to how you have advanced as a player?  I'm a father of a young teen that is just starting to get into MMOs.  I can see in him the same wonder I felt myself when I started out.  The games that are inspireing him are the same games I look at and yawn over.

@Norinn
I don't think that's the problem at all to be honest. For us to become more advanced as mmo-players, we would need to have challenging games to play in the first place. My first mmo was the most challenging mmo I have yet to find, so I actually think I might be getting LESS advanced as a mmo-player as the years go by. ;)

It doesn't surprise me that "mmo-newbies" can find WoW etc. exciting at all though. The mmo genre can be awesome. It's just too bad that so many people go for the game with the least actual content. If they find WoW amazing, imagine what they would be feeling if they had started in Asheron's Call, Everquest, EVE or whatever.